What reloading setup are you folks using?

[towerofpower93]

I like the 10" AR upper I got from Heavy Metal, but I think it's about time I start reloading some of this surplus brass I've been collecting with some big ol' .308 rifle bullets at subsonic levels through my suppressor.

I've been reloading for a few years, but have never dipped my toes into wildcat rounds like 7.62x25 loaded with a rifle bullet...so here come the questions.

What dies are giving consistent OALs and nice/gentle crimps? I've been reading that a heavy hand can crunch the neck as there isn't much there, but is there a go to crimp die that stands above the rest?

What primers and powders are giving consistent subsonic results with 168s and above?

I have yet to figure my exact chamber depth, but figure I'll use the method from Snipershide linked to in another thread here.

Starting out I'm not super worried about getting cloverleafs as I am about safe loads which cycle the AR action and stay subsonic so as to keep the giggle factor high.

If much of this has been covered elsewhere on the net I'm happy to read more before asking any further questions. Unfortunately, most everything I've seen relates to the pistol side of the house for the 7.62x25 case instead of the rifle bullet realm I'd like to try my hand at.

Thanks

Eric

ETA: Guess I should have put this in a separate thread or IM, but may as well put it out for others to reference.

Tim, is the twist rate for the 10" DI setup you built me in late 2010 even good to go for a subsonic .308 round? Never asked what the twist rate was, but figured that having the man who built the upper in the forum it would be easiest to just throw it out there and see what comes back.

Thanks

Eric

[22boomer]

Eric,
I have three types of 7.62X25 carbines -- a blowback, one with a pistol length gas system that was designed originally to be a "Whisper" type carbine and one with the short gas system from Heavy Metal. If your carbine has the short gas system I would wait to see if Tim from Heavy Metal can chime in here with some loads he may have developed. I have only used the heavier rifle bullets in the carbine with the pistol gas system, not the shorter system like the type that Tim does at Heavy Metal. Reloading for the short gas system is fun and easy. I'm on a budget so I use Lee reloading dies for the 7.62X25/30 Mauser but I use the Lee Factory Crimp die when I do crimp. The Lee dies come with an info sheet that includes some very good reloading info that covers bullet weight and types of powders to use. I've reloaded Sellier&Bellott brass and Starline brass and they both work very well although I've found that the Starline is best kept at factory level loads or the primer pockets start getting loose. I was just wondering if your brass that you called "Surplus Brass" was milsurp brass or regular commercial brass for the 7.62X25? The milsurp stuff is Berdan primed and is a pain for reloading.

[towerofpower93]

Thanks for the info regarding the Lee dies and FCD. I use Lee dies for 9mm and .45 and have found them to be more than adequate for my needs with consistent results across a range of loads in each cartridge.

The brass I have is milsurp (Polish surplus from J&G Sales from back in 2010/11 if I remember correctly) and I'd never even shined a light into the case to see if they were berdan or boxer primed. Looks like I'll be needing to pick up some Starline brass or seperate some S&B brass from their current projectiles via the most fun way I know of;)

I'll see if Tim jumps in here and if not I'll hit him up via IM or email. I figured he had a bunch of loads already worked up but wanted to see what others around here had cooked up themselves as well.

As far as components go, until Tim can drop by with specifics, are you using pistol or rifle primers? I've seen some talking about loading with rifle primers and magnum rifle primers, but have never loaded magnum primers and do not fully understand the benefits of doing so in such a small case. I know a magnum primer gives more umph and one should adjust the powder charge accordingly based on what I've read, but have no firsthand experience with it and don't want pretend to at this point in time. I would guess the use of rifle primers would follow due to the use of rifle powders, but again, having never taken part in this science known as wildcatting I have no personal experience nor shoot with anyone who does as far as I know. Myself and the folks I reguraly shoot with are all pretty run of the mill so far as reloading goes with the usual 9mm, .45 and .223, but nothing out of the box so to speak.

Also, any favorite powders which give a good burn rate without too much fouling of the short gas system in the Heavy Metal upper?

Thanks for helping me get into the niche segment of wildcat reloading. I've always found the information surrounding some of the more oddball rounds very interesting as it isn't just opening up a reloading manual and playing follow the leader. At the same time I'm not comfortable enough yet to jump in with both guns blazing and possibly cause harm to myself, others or my weapons. Hopefully I can use this system as a testbed for my own abilities as well as to get some basic principles understood and put into practice.

Merry Christmas to all

Eric

[22boomer]

Eric,
I use small rifle magnum primers only because that is the type of primer I usually buy. I load larger stuff and those primers work best so I just kinda use them for everything. The standard small rifle primers may actually work better but you would need to run tests since it sounds like you want to do some loading that's a bit out of the norm. I don't shoot the short gas system with anything but normal 7.62 Tok loads -- I've even been shooting lead bullets since they can be bought already cast -- I don't do lead casting. I used 115gr lead bullets actually designed for the M1 Carbine. Some of my best loads with regular bullets was with the Hornady 110gr V-max bullets and Hornady 110gr FMJ round nosed bullets using Accurate #9 powder but I believe it was in the longer pistol length gas system so I really don't want to say how much powder I used -- best you wait to see if Tim shows up to give some load info on his short gas system.

By the way, I was looking through my records and saw that I actually did have some luck with the sabots but it was in my blowback 7.62 Tok setup and I used 35gr Hornady V-max bullets. I believe I did did some chrony work with those and got speeds that only ran around 2800fps -- I was hoping for over 3000fps but never got there. Problem was I was using good old Accurate #9 and never tried a faster powder. I will say that I had problems in the DI setup with the sabots. Seems that once and a while one of the little fingers on the plastic sabots would get folded back and cause a jam. It was a fun project but that was about it. I figure those sabots from EABCO that I was using was better suited for a bolt action rifle.

[towerofpower93]

Thanks for the info on magnum vs standard rifle primers; figured there was a reason but using the same components in as many loads as possible certainly has its benefits.

I'll standby for Tim to see what data he has for the short DI gas system and heavy rifle bullets.

Thanks

Eric

[HMC710]

Hey All, Happy New Year !
Made it home for Christmas but internet issues have kept me off line. Eric you have a 1:10 twist barrel and that will handle anything up to about 200 gr without issue. Anything over that won't stablize. One of my favorite loads is with bulk 147gr FMJ with 7gr of Unique or 8-9gr of Lil Gun. I run a lot of 180 gr cast with 6gr of Lil Gun. The 240 SMK's with 10gr of Lil Gun but you won't get any benefit without the 1:8 twist barrel. I just got the new Lee 220gr Blackout mold but haven't cast any yet. As far as the lighter bullets like the 85gr FMJ, 6.5 gr of Unique or AA#9. Our short gas system will cycle the sub rounds with the 180's but you might have to put in a heavier buffer or spring as the subs actually put out some high pressures. I use Lee dies for the majority of loading duty. I'm going on memory for the load data as I haven't been doing a lot of Tok loading lately. If you get a chance to pick up Quick Load it is a great tool for doing What IF type stuff. Another note on our Tok set ups, you can run up to 180 cast or 200 gr spires. Hornady 180's are a favorite.
I use std small pistol primers and Starline brass but also have a mixed bag of once fired I got from a guy. Keep us posted on what you come up with.

[towerofpower93]

Tim

Thanks for the powder and bullet info. Unfortunately, due to the panic buying I probably won't be able to start trying some loads until Lil Gun or Accurate #9 are actually in stock anywhere.

What are you finding to be good starting point for finished cartridge OAL with the 147, 168 and 180 FMJs? You posted an OAL of 1.180 in an older thread with Hornady 180gn SP partitions next to one of your homespun brass baubles at 2.013 OAL, but I'm not sure if that's a differen barrel/chamber than your standard DI upper.

Also, I read somewhere else on here about needing a longer seating stem for the CH4D bullet seating die when using the larger/longer rifle bullets versus the round nose 85gn bullets. Does that hold true for the Lee 7.62x25 seating die as well?

Thanks for all the help so far and for being so forthright with your info.

Happy New Year

Eric

[towerofpower93]

One last question for the moment, I've seen folks reference using 7.62 Tok dies as well as .30 Mauser dies...is there a reason the two are used somewhat interchangeably while loading full size rifle bulles in the 7.62 Tok cases?

Looking at the Lee steel pistol dies page and they list both as seperate items:

leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/3-die-steel-pistol-die-set/

Figure I'd go with these dies and add a Lee 7.62 Tok factory crimp die while loading on a single stage press to start. Once/if I get everything dialed in I'd setup a tool head for the 550B.

Thanks

Eric

ETA: found an answer to my own question (I think). If I'm reading what others have written here and elsewhere, .30 Mauser brass is a hair longer than the Tok brass. I'm guessing .30 Mauser brass could be resized in a 7.62x25 Tok die and then cut down to Tok spec in the trimming process, but I'll be starting with dedicated 7.62x25 brass via Starline or S&B...so 7.62x25 Tok dies for me.

[HMC710]

OK - let the experts chime in here - and I'm not one of them:

The 30 Mauser (7.63x25) came first around 1900 for the Mauser pistol. It rocked and soon became the standard sub machine gun round copied by everyone like the Russians with the 7.62x25. The 30 Luger (7.65x21) is much shorter and won't work. Most references say the Mauser and Tokarev can be interchanged....... most.
This is where I got in to trouble with the Tok. I made my first reamer based on a surplus ammo case measurement and I got lucky and it worked. Then I started doing research to build a real reamer. I couldn't find any two sources that matched for the Tokarev. By the way: a quick shout out to www.ammoguide.com
It is a great reference for information, cases, and reloading data. Highly recommended. There are about 80 hand loads listed for the Tok there. Ammo guide says the 30 Mauser and Tok are interchangeable but if you look at the cartridge prints they don't match which takes me back to my story. My Lee dies came marked 30 Mauser, but the paper work was Tokarev. The case dimension didn't match anything I had for info. But, they made workable reloads. Then I bought a real reamer with a go guage, did 4 barrels and none of them worked. That started my trek into barrels.
As far as the two part numbers for Lee, there are slight differences in the two rounds, plus they are labeled different. You could always call them and ask, they are great to deal with. Now, lets look at the history of the two rounds....
#1 purpose: Go Bang
#2: Go bang in every new, used, worn out, mud soaked gun.
#3: Go bang in what ever gun or box of ammo you pick up on the battle field.
That all means these are not match chambers but mass produced battle arms built in converted plow factories by the left over people who didn't go off to fight.
Now we fast forward to the $80/case surplus ammo, AR conversions, and 30 round mag dumps. Not the best recipe for accuracy. But we do what we can. Standard overall length for Tok mag work is around 1.35" (which really pisses off the 1911 guys). Using M1 Carbine mags we can go up to 1.59 or so and anything longer than that (that will chamber) can be run out of stock mags. I would have to go back and look at what the 180 SP loads were for length but 1.8" sounds right. I wouldn't get too hung up on lengths but how things chamber. Some place between "short" and "long" you will find spots that shoot better. That's part of the reloading process, finding out what works.
Wow, ususally don't post this long but just spent 8hrs in the truck and the coffee hasn't worn off yet....
Yes, I made a new seating stem for the really long bullets. Went to two stores before I could find a box of factory 45 acp rounds. What an un-necessary mess......

[towerofpower93]

Haha, I know the feeling. Spent the last 14hrs in airports after getting delayed over and over; 4hr travel more ban tripled ways makes for a good day...

Thanks again for all the data. I'm sure I'll be coming back to this thread and board over and over as I get my feet wet.

Eric

[22boomer]

Speaking of 30 Mauser, I found out about a funny little thing with Starline brass. Having to buy loaded commercial 7.62X25 ammo to get good brass seemed a little much for me so I went to the Starline 7.62X25 brass but I noticed the cases were shorter which meant the already short necks were even shorter. Just for the heck of it I went and ordered a bunch of Starline 30 Mauser brass and found it was the same length as the Sellier&Bellott brass and a hair longer than the Starline 7.62X25 brass. I've since been using Starline 30 Mauser brass when I can get it instead of Starline 7.62X25 brass to make up my special 7.62X25 loads.

[HMC710]

Great post 22! I started with the Starline brass and it was indeed short compared to the Lee dies that stated .988" case length and I was hard pressed to find the Starline any longer than .970"
Worse yet was the surplus that ran down to .956" which really threw me for a loop. This is going to make me really do some prep work on the 22 Reeds Express where the neck is going to be kinda important. I've got some once fired S&B that I'll dig out of the pile and see what it measures.

[towerofpower93]

That is interesting, thank you very much for the Starline 30 Mauser vs 7.62 Tok brass. I'd rather have to shave a little off than be too short to start with.

"You can't cut it longer" to quote my Grandfather...

Eric

Just to go forward without assumptions, are you using the Starline 30 Mauser brass with your 7.62x25 dies?

Thanks

Eric

[22boomer]

The last couple of piles of brass I ordered was all 30 Mauser and, Yes, I use it in my 7.62 dies. You can check the case length if you get some and you will find it's actually the correct 7.62X25 length -- no case trimming necessary. I have found that others have also mentioned that Starline pistol brass -- almost all their pistol brass -- comes up a hair short.

[towerofpower93]

22Boomer

Thank you very much for the confirmation. Now to get my hands on some Tok dies, 30 Mauser brass and some Lil Gun/Unique to start working on some loads and see what comes of it.

Thanks again to you both for helping get me pointed in the right direction.

Eric