Its time to create a new thread for the 22 UZ. Too bad I need to tweak the barrel I just made.... I cut the chamber a bit too deep so need to work that back a bit. I've got enough meat to do it so now its just finding a machine and the time to do it. Have QL up and running and will get some subs and mid power loads worked up. Bullets are the 37gr cast FNGC and Berger 30gr Varmint Grenades. Forming brass using 38 Super Comp and one pass through the 22 UZ dies does give some thick necks. Now those thick necks are causing interference during chambering and the reason I cut the chamber a bit too deep. Temporary fix will be to inside neck ream, but when I get a real reamer made I'll probably design it for stock brass conversion with no extra work such as neck turning. I'll do a couple with the 9x23 brass just to see, but looks like no testing this weekend but stay tuned...
I don't know if you've already read about this but I thought it was interesting. I Don't know how well that little round nose bullet would feed in a double stack/double feed but I guess we will find out. It still doesn't give us much of a choice in using other bullets.
Yea, they were talking about that design a while back. Might As well put a BB in there! Why go with a round ball when you can have this?
Now that's more like it! Got the necks reamed, chamber set, and ready for testing tomorrow. Using Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades and the old Lyman 37gr FNGC. Trial loads are 4 & 5 gr of Herco which will give us 1500fps and 1700 fps. QL says this thing tops out at 2500 fps so we'll see what happens. All this pending of course that we can run it in the blow back at those velocities. My gut says I'll have to take some taper out of the case first and if we do that I might put a bit more neck in it also. My goal is a reliable 2000 fps blow back without a 2lb buffer.
I honestly have to say I like your rounds more, I just can't ignore the ready made TCM brass. I was looking for a round with the nice bullet profile and your Uzi rounds fit that. Is the brass made from 30 Luger brass or reformed TCM brass. I have the 30 Luger brass and it has the same rim size as the 9mm Luger so your 9mm gas gun could be converted with just a barrel change and swapping over the gas block and tube. Sorry if I missed what you used to form up the brass -- the other thread got so long I just went to the last page after awhile. Too bad you have to ream out the neck. Could the chamber reamer be made to allow for a thicker neck or are there problems with that. I was just thinking the extra step might be eliminated. It would be super if it worked really good in the blowback and I wish you the best of luck with that since there is a ton of AR 9mm blowbacks out there -- plus there is no reason that a 9mm pistol conversion couldn't be made that used real 9mm magazines.
Last Edit: Feb 22, 2015 8:23:07 GMT -5 by 22boomer
Right now brass is formed from 38 Super Comp Brass which forms out around .890" vs .850" for the 30 Luger. Now remember this is just a test to see if things work, then I'll have Dave Manson cut me a reamer and Lee or CH4D do a die set. The only reason I used the 38 SC brass is because no one had 9x23 or 30 Luger brass. I cut the 22 Reed Express dies down .100" exactly, but when applied to the Tok brass it only moves the shoulder down about .050". The 38 SC has a much shorter neck than the Tokarev, but, as you could see in the pictures above, it makes cases! Now the thick neck issue was an easy inside neck ream fix, but the only reason I didn't use Tok brass is that it swages the base down a bit (because I cut the dies off .100") and then I have to trim the necks down. Now, having said all of that, I had an issue with 90% of the formed 38SC brass, as the tapers all split at the shoulder. I might be able to step my neck swaging down in steps, anneal the brass prior to forming, or thin the 38 SC brass before forming to see if it helps. Testing: Ran two loads with two bullets: 4gr of Herco with the Cast Lyman 37gr Flat Nose Gas Check and Bergers 30 gr JHP Varmint Grenades. You can see the pics above. Feeding from stock Uzi / Cproduct mags with our Uzi blowback adapter. I had an H3 buffer and carbine spring in the upper, none of the super heavy buffers I've used in the past. I tried for 4g loads first which QL predicted around 1700 fps. First round fed from the bolt drop, fired, ejected, but did not re-set the hammer. Good news here. Remember we would get a soft first shot when doing the 22 RE in blowback. I fired two more rounds and everything cycled fine. Cases were thrown about 20' off to the side so we definitely had some bolt speed. I tracked down the brass and that's when I found the splits at the shoulder, bummer. Now that the rounds fired without blowing up, I set up the chronograph. Expecting around 1700 fps from the 4gr load, I was very surprised when the three shot string ran form 1830 - 1880 fps We loaded up the 5gr load and hit 2100 fps ..... and remember we have a few more psi to go with this thing, and this is an 8" barrel! So that leads me to the question, do we shorten this up a bit and increase the available bullet weight range? Even with the set up we have now, I might drop the shoulder back about .020" and give us just a bit more neck. Even tho we have some issues, I need to move forward with this thing and get a reamer cut with the shoulders blown out a bit to take some taper out of it, I think that will help even more with the blow back operation. Whether I use Tok brass to see if it forms easier or my first choice of 9x23 brass with its higher pressure capability, we'll see how it goes. In the mean time I'm going to try and resize some Tok brass and anneal some of the 38 Super brass and try them again. The bottom line is, we hit 2000 fps with an 8" barrel and all stock parts, that includes existing 9mm mags and adapters many of us already have. Stay tuned.....
Tim, I think you are on to something big here with the 22 Uzi -- 2100fps out of an 8" barrel is really very good. Imagine, with the right powder what it would do out of a 16" barrel. How would you go about manufacturing the ammo or would this be left up to the customer? By the way, there is a fellow (can't remember his name but I could probably find it) that can convert existing FL dies to use the neck forming inserts so you can form the neck down in steps. I had to do something similar when I made up the 17 Reed Express from 22 Reed express. It can be a real pain trying to reform 30 Luger brass down to 22 caliber. I think I used an old cut-down 25 caliber die for an intermediate step and it was still a pain. I know you have access to all types of brass but let me know if you want the stuff I have -- I can just stuff it in a box and send it to you.
By the way, as an alternative setup, have you thought about doing a short gas system with the 22 Uzi like your 9mm DI system? Just a thought.
Hey 22, What do you call a snow plow in South Carolina? Busy!!!!!
Appreciate the offer 22 but both those rounds are too short ( so far )
Yes there are a few die makers that use neck bushings to adjust the neck dia by .001 and even .0005"
Yes, 2100 fps from an 8" barrel was a bonus, plus what we are learning on this. As far as making ammo, we'll pull that page from the 22 RE book, Starline wouldn't even consider a custom run for 250,000 pcs last year. We'll see how things progress over the next few moves and go from there.
Of course we'll do a gas version!
I tried a few methods of forming brass yesterday and my next move is to take my old set of 22 RE dies, cut them down and ream the neck out a bit as an interim step. Or, make a new set of dies & reamer that don't swage down the base of the brass. I'll do some measuring and see which way to go first to get more brass. This way works but one time use brass gets expensive!
Have been finding some tricks with the 22 Uzi and ran some more tests today to duplicate our findings. Good news is that with the H3 buffer we have a 2000 fps load that would eject the round but not reset the trigger I didn't put the lighter buffer in to see how things would go with that, we'll do that next trip. Still cracking brass at the shoulders of the formed 38 SC brass so I'll try and anneal some and try it again. Tried a few different methods to swage things down in steps but the one pass method always worked best. Also tried a number of things to use Tok brass but the base swage really caused issues. Sent off an email to Dave Manson with some preliminary dimensions for a new reamer. We'll bat this thing around a bit and come up with a final spec for the 22 Uzi. One thing about the new reamer is we hope to be able to use Tok brass once we get the die set right. Still encouraged with our tests and now to see if we can apply what we have learned to the 22 Reeds Express!
Got the torch out and did about a 6 step process to make brass.....
the rounds on the left are earlier attempts. You can see the split neck on the far left during seating, the split neck after firing 2nd from left, and all the fine lines on the shoulder from the one step swaging process the 3rd from the left. The 6 step process with annealing between steps produced some good neck and shoulder cases as shown on the 2 cases on the right.
Success, on a number of fronts today 1st: the brass worked. Only one split neck with my 5gr of Herco load. 2nd: The H3 buffer proves to be too heavy! This is great news. 3rd: 2350 fps! No sign of pressure and a buffer that's too heavy. That's a win/win. Drawbacks? Yes, got some nose down jams and looking at our geometry on that. No word back from Dave Manson on our new reamer design ( probably still shoveling snow...) I'll give him a few more days. and the "That's Interesting" part? Tested the old 22 RE also today. Barrel lengths are just about the same, 7.5 - 8". 22 Uzi load: 5gr Herco + 30gr JHP = 2350 fps. The 22 RE load? 6gr of Herco + 30gr JHP = 2150 fps..... hmmmmm, now that's interesting. I'll run them both through Quick Load and verify barrel lengths, but maybe its just an efficiency thing. I used the same carrier, buffer, and spring, and shot multiple rounds. The take away here is that "I shot multiple rounds." A month ago that was not going well.
Looked into the velocity thing and the 22 RE is only 5.5" long, 2" shorter than the Uzi. QL still predicted both rounds about 150 fps less than the chrono reading, but the RE was slower than the Uzi. Made up about 40 more cases, but the necks are still a bit too tight so have a new neck turner coming (to replace the one back home...) to go along with my reamer. Having the same nose down jam as the 22 RE so we'll address both of them at the same time once we duplicate our performance and verify what we think we are doing, we are actually doing.
With the success of the 22 RE blowback mods and feeding, going to do the same mod to the 22 uzi. Talked with Dave Manson last week and he shot me a mark up of the new reamer based on our discussion. I'm going to make one change to it and have him get a reamer coming with gauges. One change is we are taking a lot of the body taper out of the case compared to the 22 Reeds express. This should help with stacking a full load into stock uzi mags.